Transcript of panel discussion given by the Prime Minister, Mr Gordon Brown, Communities Secretary Hazel Blears and Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, in London, on Tuesday 9 November 2008.
Chairwoman - Louise Casey:I am back, as you can see. I would like to introduce the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, Hazel Blears who is the Communities Secretary, and the Home Secretary Jacqui Smith.
Obviously Prime Minister I have already been in to tell them that you were coming, so the only people shocked were, I have to say, two friends from Newport that arrived literally two minutes ago, they walked into the Community Centre, they turned left into the room, saw me and then saw him, nearly fainted I think would be the expression. He nearly fainted as well. Jacqui and Hazel had to pick them up either side and then we got them here and hopefully they are getting a cup of tea to calm down, because I would be shocked if that happened to me as well. So that is a great start to the morning.
I am really grateful to everybody coming. Obviously the Prime Minister is going to speak in a few moments about some thoughts that he has had on a range of issues, and then I have said that hopefully we can then have a discussion about some of the issues that we are all facing in the room today and we all want to do more about.
So with no further ado, I would like to introduce the Prime Minister Gordon Brown.
Prime Minister:Can I thank you all for coming here today. All of you in your different ways are making a huge difference, changing the world of your communities, making them better places, working with other people to make stronger communities for the future. And I know there are people here who are community activists, there are people here who are from the police, there are people here from the anti-social behaviour services that exist in all parts of the country, there are people who are residents who have done great things in their own communities and I am very pleased to be here with Hazel Blears, who is our Secretary for Communities, and Jacqui Smith who is our Home Secretary, and we want to have a discussion with you about how we can improve our communities, how by adopting fairer rules for the future we can make our communities stronger, how we can get rid of antisocial behaviour, how we can deal with the problems of crime that exist, how we can encourage our young people to make more positive use of their time, and how in the end we can build a stronger country. So I am delighted to be here.
As I came in this morning I met two people, Chris who had come from Birmingham and Elaine who had come from Plymouth, and I had a discussion with them about what they themselves as individuals had achieved over the last few years. And Chris has been working in an area of Birmingham where there were huge numbers of crack houses, a huge amount of prostitution on the streets, and he single-handedly started the process of cleaning up the area in such a way that residents are now proud that the area in which they live in is one where the problems are being solved, people are working together in community groups and change is taking place. And from Plymouth Elaine was telling me about how she took on antisocial behaviour single-handedly and gradually got other people in the community to work with us, and I know each one of you has your own story to tell about the great things you have done in your own areas, and we really do appreciate you coming here today to give us your thoughts and to tell us how you think we can do things better.
I want to start by saying something about what is underlying a lot of the challenges that we face as a country at the moment, and that is what is happening to our economy, because you know that people at the moment are worried about their mortgages, people are worried about their jobs, people are worried if they are in a small business about whether the small business can get the money from the banks, they are worried about how they are being treated by the banks and they are worried about what is going to happen in the next few months as a result of what is happening around the world in all different countries and has now affected Britain, as it is affecting many other countries around the world. Because this is a global problem that every continent is facing and I want us in Britain to be able to deal with it more quickly, to deal with it in a better way and to deal with it, in particular, in a fairer way so that people can get the benefit.
And I have been assured that we must learn from the mistakes that were made in the past. We don’t want a situation such as we had in the 90s downturn where nothing is done to help mortgage holders and home owners, and that is why we want to give people the confidence that there will not be repossessions, that people are making the effort to pay their mortgages. And that is why we have persuaded banks already that they will say that there will be no repossessions for 3 months, some are now saying 6 months, and we are going to go further in the next few days by showing how we can help people stay in their own homes, even if there is a loss of a job or a loss of substantial amounts of income. And I want people to have the security that they never had in the 90s downturn, that their homes can be safe.
And I also want to avoid the mistakes of the 90s when unemployment rose without the government doing anything about it, so we are going to make sure, as we come back in the New Year, that we do more to help people stay in their jobs and we do more to help people move from the jobs that have been lost, to new jobs, and to get the skills for the new jobs. And you will see proposals coming forward to do that as well. And we are determined also to learn from the mistakes from the past and to help small businesses and companies through this downturn and that is why we are making the banks agree to a whole series of measures that previously they have not agreed to, to help that cash flow come to small businesses and to companies, so that we can keep them moving forward in what is a difficult time for the world economy.
And at the same time we have cut VAT, as you know, to help move consumer spending forward, we are advancing the date by which the pension is to be paid, the higher rate of the pension, to January 1st. Child benefit will be paid at a higher level from January 1st as well. We are raising the pension credit and we are raising the child tax credit so that people are better off, and that is in addition to what we have done on VAT.
And in addition to that we are going to be also avoiding the mistakes of the past. We are going to increase our level of investment in our schools, in our transport and our infrastructure such as around here of course, the transport for the Olympics and the buildings for the Olympics, we are going to move these forward more quickly so we can get the construction industry working and keep people in jobs, but also deliver what we need for the future, which is better infrastructure, better transport, better hospitals, a better set of schools.
So we are taking these bold decisions. The alternative of doing nothing, the alternative of adopting the failed solutions of the past which led to so much difficulty in the 1980s and the 90s, the alternative of letting the recession take its course is one that we will not allow to happen. We will take action, working with our European and international partners at every point. And I believe there is a very clear dividing line between those who would do nothing and simply let people suffer, and what we are determined to do is to help people through these difficult times and I believe we can do this successfully by working with all the organisations in our country both to create jobs and to ensure that there is confidence returning to the economy as quickly as possible.
You know in difficult times people who have a huge amount of wealth can get through, but all of the rest of us, middle and lower and modest income families, you do need governments that are prepared to help and to work their way through the problems with you to make sure that people are more safe and secure.
And you do also need a society that is built on fair rules as well, not just fairness to people in the times of a downturn and fairness to families, but fair rules that make people understand that your society is built on people doing the right thing and encouraging people to do the right thing.
And that is why today we are having this discussion about what are the fair rules for the future, fair rules for welfare, fair rules for immigration, fair rules for the way the banks behave towards people, and of course fair rules for communities in dealing with problems of law and order.
Can I just say on welfare, we are determined to help people into jobs, but we are determined also that in return for helping people into jobs they take responsibility too to get the skills that are necessary for the jobs that are going to be there for the future. And so we are tightening up both what we can do to help people, giving people more help, but making sure that people actually discharge their responsibilities to look for a job and to get the skills for the next jobs that are going to come and benefiting from what are 600,000 vacancies around the country.
Fair rules too in immigration, because we have adopted, as many of you may know, the Australian-style points system. If you have got something to offer our country, please come into our country, but if you don’t have a skill that we need then we reserve the right as a country to say this is not the time for you to come to our country, and that is what the Australian-style points system is about, you have points that will allow you to get in if you have got a skill to offer, but if that is not the case then we have the right to say as a country that if you don’t have a contribution to make then we do not need to take you.
And at the same time of course as the Australian points system, we are setting up a fund, a citizenship fund, so that people who come in, perhaps older, can contribute to the public services of our country and that is something that you will see being pushed out in the next few months as we set up this new citizenship fund for the future.
But I come to fair rules on crime. Louise did a brilliant report for us and she said, rightly, that the public want to know more about what is being done to tackle crime. Because although I could give you lots of statistics, the important thing is not just that people are safe, but people feel safe and people feel safer in their streets, in their neighbourhoods, safer in their communities.
Now that is why one of the great differences over the last year has been the introduction of neighbourhood policing. In every community of the country there is now a visible neighbourhood presence of police, and I believe that you will want to see that improved over the next few months and years and we are certainly very happy to listen to what you have to say.
There is a new policing pledge that the police will keep in touch with you, keep you informed of what is happening, have regular meetings, listen to what you have to say, and in that way the presence of the police and all the local community support for the police can make for a far stronger community. But I do believe, and Jacqui has been working on this over the last few months, that neighbourhood policing as it moves to every area of the country, I think there are now 3,500 neighbourhood policing units, I think there are about 18,000 police in total involved directly in neighbourhood policing, you get the local phone number, you get information, you have a chance to have that regular meeting, whether it is at a street corner or whether it is in a community hall or office, and over time we will develop services that will enable you to get far more information, to give far more information to the police and to work more closely together to make a reality of what neighbourhood policing should be, and that is serving every neighbourhood of the country.
In addition to that we are determined to make community pay-back work more successfully. Now I know that in the past, and Robin Wales, the Mayor of Newham, is here today and I am really grateful he is here. We know that people have thought that community payback is not the toughest sentence, it is not the toughest way of dealing with some of the people who are causing trouble, but we are changing community payback in such a way it is genuinely payback. And we have great examples of where the communities themselves have decided what is the right payback to do, what people should be asked to do, the number of hours they should be asked to do that community payback, and I will be very interested in what you have to say today about how we can improve community payback for the future. It should be service to the community, it should be visible so that people can see what is being done, people should know that their community is being improved as a result and it should be a lesson for those people who have indulged in antisocial behaviour that this is not tolerated and will not be tolerated in the future.
Now fair rules also mean of course that we take account of the needs of victims and witnesses and that we understand that people who are victims and people who have to be witnesses in the criminal justice system are under a huge amount of pressure in some instances and we must protect them. We are going to have, and will be appointing, a Commissioner for victims and witnesses, a Commissioner that can speak on behalf of people who often feel that they have never had a voice. And we are going to try to get the information across to people. Sometimes you hear of a crime, then you hear that someone has been arrested and you hear no more. You want to know what has actually happened, what the sentence has been, what has been the result of the criminal proceedings, and I think that is another important aspect of making the criminal justice system work for you.
I want to end by talking about one instance where I think together we can improve things so much more, and it is something that Jacqui and Hazel have been working on very closely. On Thursday we will launch the next stage of our initiatives to tackle knife crime. Now I think all of you know that when young teenagers get the idea that it is macho and they feel safer themselves carrying a knife, then trouble follows, because it is likely that the knife that is being carried will end up being used, and it is likely that young people will be drawn into crime because it is easy to get a knife, or has been easy to get a knife, and then of course we have all the prosecutions, the knife crimes, the deaths and the terrible things that have happened. And I have been at too many events where I have met people, and I know there are people here today where knife crime has simply damaged forever the life of particular families, and it is a sadness that I believe we can do far more to avoid.
Over the last few months we have stepped up our activity against knife crime. There have been 100,000 searches of people who were suspected of having knives only in the last few months, we have increased the sentences, there is a presumption to prosecute if you are caught with a knife, there is far tougher action being taken in the sentences by the courts now so people are being sentenced to longer times in prison when they are convicted of knife crime, we have banned the sale of knives in certain places, particularly for under 18s, and we have sent out a very clear message in our schools about the dangers of carrying knives, and we have got the [indistinct] and all the different means by which we can detect mechanical equipment, like knives, that are being carried by people when there are searches going on in streets.
But you know at the end of the day it needs a whole community to come together, it needs all of us to say no to knives, it needs all of us to get the message out to young people through their role models or through young people themselves that knives are completely unacceptable, that we are not going to be a country where people just randomly walk down our streets carrying knives. In Britain people see guns as completely unacceptable, it is something that is part of our culture and something of course we are determined in areas where there have been guns to eradicate from these communities.
Bullying, there have been huge campaigns about bullying in schools and I think there has been a greater acceptance that this is something that is completely wrong.
Racism has been kicked out of sport by some of the events that sportsmen themselves and others have been organising. So you can start to change the culture. Drink-driving in our country is unacceptable because of all the steps that the community have taken over many, many years.
We must now do the same for knives, no to knives, it is unacceptable to carry a knife. Any young person caught with a knife will be punished as a result of having a knife. It is not something that is cool for a young man to carry a knife, it is something that actually threatens other members of your community. And I believe all of us know the importance of this message. But if as a community together we can get that message right across the country so that every teenager understands what is being said, then we could make a difference to the culture of some of our streets and some of our neighbourhoods.
And I think it is fascinating that on Thursday we are going to have this launch of the Campaign Against Knife Crime, we have got footballers coming from different clubs, we have got pop singers, we have got people who are involved in the entertainment industry, we have got people who themselves have been victims of knife crime, people who have stood up against those people in their communities that have been threatening them, we have everybody coming together so that we can actually say with one powerful voice to the country, no to knives, and I think that will be a major step forward, backing up the work that so many of you have done in your own areas.
Now you are all local heroes. Our country depends upon you. You have come from different parts of the country today. What you do for your local communities is not only changing your own communities but having an influence on all of us in the rest of the country as we decide what we can do together to combat, whether it is antisocial behaviour or violent crime, or whether it is drugs or whether it is violence conducted against people in any way, you are the local heroes, you are making a difference, what you can say to us today about how we can continue to work together is not only important to making stronger communities in your own area, but making for a stronger country.
And that is why Jacqui and Hazel and I are here today to listen to what you have to say, with Louise chairing the discussion. Thank you for being here, let us work together to make for stronger communities.
Chairwoman:Now then, I have warned you all not to be shy before we kicked off, and I am not shy either, so I am going to make sure that we get a good conversation going. Who wants to kick us off on any of the subjects around crime or justice or anything like that really?
Question: Chairwoman:We do have a microphone, sorry Paul you didn’t need one, but we do have a microphone for anybody else. Shall we deal with the issue of antisocial behaviour first, and I think everyone in the room knows it is the biggest driver of confidence in people’s view of crime, both within [indistinct] and local government. Home Secretary, do you want to reply?
Jacqui Smith:I will take up the challenge of leadership, which is why over the last six months what we have done in the Home Office, you know first of all let’s be clear, Respect Together I think has embedded lots of work that you are talking about. And I think we have now come round to the stage, as you rightly say, where we need to take ourselves to the next stage in terms of national leadership, which is why what I said six months ago was I think we need to reinvigorate it, which is why we set up a national squad of real antisocial behaviour experts to support precisely the sort of work that is going on, which is why we have been very clear in terms of what we have said about both neighbourhood policing and, as Louise says, confidence, that we need to give the opportunities through what we do nationally for there to be a strong focus on that. That is a strong reason why incidentally we have decided nationally with respect to policing to remove all top-down targets apart from that to raise confidence in what is happening locally, it is why we are now focusing on how we actually make sure that everybody, not just [indistinct] like you are talking about, understand the rules that are in place. It is why yesterday I was just down the road in Tower Hamlets identifying the first premises closure order in the country that is actually being used as the sort of very important, probably not the final tool, but the next tool in the tool kit that people have got, and it is why I have asked Alan Campbell, alongside me, to provide some new Ministerial lead to it. So you will be hearing, you should have heard and you certainly will be hearing plenty more from us about it as we go forward.
Hazel Blears:I entirely take your point that what Respect and Together did was to change people’s ways of working, and it certainly invigorated local councils to say this was their core business, as well as the police. And I think the one thing we have got from it is it the council, the police and the community, and that is quite a powerful combination if you get everybody facing in the same direction. And I think the tools that we have developed are fantastic, to be honest, and have made a big difference.
And I think the bit of the jigsaw that is missing sometimes is that the public doesn’t always know what are the tools you have got, that when you have a public meeting, unless you know you can get a dispersal order, unless you know you can do a crack house closure, then sometimes, and I am sure you never do this, then sometimes it used to be the case a little while ago that people would turn up and say we know it is terrible, we feel really sorry for you, but there is nothing we can do. And now that is absolutely not true. There is a lot we can do. And I think the bits that Jacqui and I are working on, the bits that I am really keen on, is for the public to actually have you know if necessary a little sheet of paper that says 10 things the authorities can do to make my life better, and then we get bottom-up push. We can do top-down leadership and we can do top-down, you know … first, but unless the public are demanding of you and of councils then we won’t get that combination. If we get that then I think that we have got something really quite powerful.
Chairwoman:We have got quite a few residents in the room. I wondered if we could take up that challenge in terms of, well you have got your hand up June, and I wonder if Mary from Manchester, we have got some people here today, I wonder Chris, to talk very much about what you can demand, to know what your rights are, to have that conversation. How can we take this forward? Can you remind everybody who you are as well.
Question:My name is June, I am a resident of Newham and also somebody who has suffered from four years of horrendous antisocial behaviour. I am a resident of a housing association. Now I am aware that our talk, Hazel, about local authorities, communities, etc, but I know that in my case personally the RSL appeared not to know what powers it had or how to use them, which left my family and I very, very vulnerable to some horrendous behaviour. But not only that, the community has felt totally disempowered. I mean I work in housing and have done for 18 years, I knew what was available and I kept telling them what was available, but the reluctance to actually just you know suck it and see, go for it, do what you need to do, wasn’t there. The community then felt disempowered to support me because they could see that the landlords, couldn’t do anything about it. What can the government do to kind of make sure that RSLs know what they have got and also how to use it.
Chairwoman:OK. Just before you answer that, I am just holding the panel back. Chris do you want to respond to that in terms of residents’ power and what you think about that as well. We will come back to that in a moment June.
Chris Hoare:I am from the Waterworks Estate in Birmingham. And I have sat and listened for a while and I have kept a little bit quiet, but I think sometimes we don’t do ourselves enough good and especially we tend to read the papers and actually believe what they say. Now if I can give you three instances of what happens in our neck of the woods. In Strathclyde in Glasgow the police weren’t sure how to deal with prostitution, so they actually came to our group and we advised them about how you can close crack houses. Some years ago in Lyon in France where they had the riots, now the government doesn’t know this, but the people from Lyon got hold of a coach and came to our estate, 52 of them, so that we could actually advise them on how to deal with the rioting and stuff like that. In the last couple of weeks we have had a representative from the Mexican government, because they have had a lot of problems, and they came to our estate for advice.
It is not all doom and gloom out there, believe me, because if people like me can turn little estates round, anybody can do it. It doesn’t need a great deal of money. And now at long last we have got somebody who actually listens to the likes of me and that woman is up there - Louise Casey. She is in contact with us, we are in contact with her, and people listen.
Chairwoman:But I don’t work for the Mexican government, I work for this government! Just so we are all clear, and I am not allowed in Mexico, as the Home Secretary just said! Shall we just take John from Liverpool in the front row and then we will come back and pick up on this issue, Communities Secretary, particularly around RSL powers which I think is quite a crucial one.
John Farrell:I am from the Liverpool City Council responsible for antisocial behaviour, family intervention and a few other bits and pieces as well. I was particularly pleased in the review that you did Louise that you were talking about uniformity in the neighbourhood policing approach and I think it is absolutely vital that we get that uniformity of approach across the agencies that are responsible for dealing with antisocial behaviour. That can quite often mean having champions who can pick up on things, as Paul mentioned before, and actually use the powers and tools imaginatively because we certainly don’t use all the tools and powers that are available to us in ways that would make an impact and that are appropriate.
But my mantra, certainly since the Audit Commission Survey a couple of years back, is that the early interventions need to be there to give the communities confidence that agencies are getting involved and trying to tackle things at root cause. Early interventions are cheap, cost effective, and in 70-odd percent of cases, as we know, resolve the problem. By the time it gets to our teams we are dealing with far more complex issues which are far more costly and take far longer to deal with.
Just a very quick example which I think some of you may have heard of in Liverpool is the Stay Safe Campaign which was led by Merseyside Police and a local champion there called Bill MacWilliam, known locally in the police as Bill MacBill, who actually looked at the children’s legislation, found that the police could actually subjectively identify young people, a person who was out on the street who needed to be removed to a place of safety. They actually consulted with the community where this was a real problem and tried in Liverpool to identify a place that the young people could be taken, and that was a local church hall. They are taken there and all the other services, including children’s services, our own family intervention programme, are there to pick those people up and talk to them about the dangers and difficulties of having their children out alone at night.
So it is about champions, it is about early intervention and it is about effective use of the tools and powers, and appropriate use of the tools and powers.
CHAIRWOMAN:Thank you John. Can we just at this moment deal with some of the issues raised so far I wonder Communities Secretary, on the take-up of powers and our colleagues in the housing association world.
Hazel Blears:June, because you work in housing then you will know the powers that they have got, and in fact what we did was we got landlords to sign up to what we called the Respect Standard, and that was a whole series of commitments that they said that they would do, and then we had quite a big kind of education campaign with them to say that you have got powers. They have got powers around antisocial behaviour orders, certainly around closure, they can support their tenants in terms of giving evidence as to their [indistinct] in court proceedings, they can be far more active players on this ground than many of them acknowledged. Sometimes there is a sense, well that is the police’s job, or it is the council’s job, but actually if you are a landlord a huge amount of antisocial behaviour comes from people’s mis-use of their tenancies, whether it is drugs, drink, music, people coming and going at all hours of the night, harassment, abuse, you know you name it we have been there. So there is perhaps more work we need to do to make sure they get that message, but they sign up to that standard and that is their contract and they should deliver it.
The other thing I would say is that quite a lot of problems come in the private rented sector as well and the introduction of landlord licensing, which we are now bringing in, which says to those rogue landlords you have got to get your act together otherwise we will come to you for your housing benefit, is actually quite a powerful message and we need to get that out more strongly as well.
Question: Hazel Blears:Yes, exactly. What is your landlord called?
Question: Chairwoman:I think it is Peabody Housing Trust, and I think we need, sorry, I mustn’t get involved in this. Prime Minister.
Prime Minister:This discussion has already raised a whole range of issues on which I think people want to feel that they can be more confident about action that is going to be taken. I was fascinated by John’s point about the family intervention programme because obviously to deal with the problems that a family faces early on, to intervene early, to take the action that is necessary, sometimes expensive but the right thing to do to get a family through difficult problems and particularly to protect the children is absolutely essential and we are trying to expand that to a number of different areas of the country, and also expand parenting support where there are problems that arise and can be easily spotted.
But I am interested also in the range of things. If there are any powers that people feel are not available in law to deal with antisocial behaviour and other problems, I would be grateful if people would mention that before the end. Because I feel that we have tried to ensure that the powers are there for the police and the powers are there for the authorities to take action. But most of the discussion here is about how obviously resources are important, I think the provision of neighbourhood policing has been a very important investment, that there may be other things that you want to raise. Information flow is obviously really important because you are saying a lot of the issues that have been raised here is where people don’t know or haven’t been given information about what their powers are and what they can do.
Coordination between the different agencies, I think that is a big issue that most people raise with me when we talk about these things.
The empowerment of communities, we have just heard I think four or five stories from people on the floor here about what they have managed to do as individuals, and then by doing that as individuals they have empowered their communities and actually changed the way their community is run. So one person, as Chris was saying, can start to make a difference and then the whole community can change as a result of that and we want to empower you to be able to do more.
And then this whole question of culture, changing the culture so that people believe that things can be done. There was a famous American writer who said he only read the sports pages of the newspapers because they talked about human achievements, but if he read the front pages of the newspapers they only talked about human failings. And I think we have got to be more confident that there are great people like the people here today who are at work in their communities, making a difference every day, needing more support and needing us to be able to tell the public about all the great things that have been done in local communities so that people can be encouraged in other communities to do more. And if this event, as one process amongst many, is to get across to the rest of the country just how many good things are being done by local people in their own communities who are determined to make a difference.
Chairwoman:Can I just ask, the issue of sort of uniformity of policing and the approach taken was a huge issue during the course of the review. People want to know what is the meeting they go to, how do they get hold of the police and for it to be really simple and straightforward, and John you have raised that again today. I wonder Home Secretary if you wouldn’t mind commenting on that.
Jacqui Smith:That is a fundamental reason why we in the Policing Green Paper said I think what we need is a pledge for what local people can expect from policing in their neighbourhood, and actually more generally. That needs to be something that is delivered everywhere across the country. Of course there will be local ways in which that is done, there will be local developments of that, but actually we all need to be confident that once a month, a minimum of once a month, we can feed in what we are concerned about, that if we contact our neighbourhood policing team we know when and how quickly we are going to get a response, that we know how to do it in the first place, that we know how quickly we can expect people to come when we call. That was the reason for putting together the pledge. Every Chief Constable now has said that they think they can deliver that by the end of this year. But then the real big job is making sure that everybody knows what it is that they are getting and that that is delivered everywhere. But that was a recognition of the requirements, you know one of the things about uniformity is it means that people are more likely to know what they are entitled to, and that is a really important part of the pledge.
Incidentally, on the point about antisocial behaviour powers as well, in January we will once again be publishing from each CDRP their use of the tools and powers that are available to them. Now one, that tells local people what is being used; two, it tells the CDRP - the Crime and Disorder Reduction Partnerships - themselves whether or not they are using the things that others are using, and it is a very good way I think of making sure that we can celebrate what is happening and fill the gaps where it isn’t happening.
And just finally I would say on the point about Operation Stay Safe, Operation Stay Safe I think was a really good example of where the powers actually already existed, as you say, but in Liverpool thought a bit innovatively, child protection measures, kids out on the streets, that can’t be good for them, plus it is not good for the community, how can we bring these things together to make a difference? And you really led the way and the challenge now, as we are doing through the [indistinct] Crime Action Plan, is to make sure that others are using those measures in that way so that we can spread the innovation.
Chairwoman:Now I know there is a colleague that wants to come in at the back there, but one of the things I want to push on is when the Prime Minister said a few moments ago, people hearing about what happens to criminals and what happens. I know we haven’t got a huge amount of time, I think we need to spend a bit of time on the criminal justice end of all of this and feeding out information both to neighbourhood policing teams and communities. And Mary from Manchester you are already nodding. Just the background here is I met Mary, who is one of the most fantastic tenants leaders Prime Minister in the years that I have been doing this job and despite enormous difficulty continues to run a tenants and residents organisation in Colleyhurst in Manchester.
Mary:Well 10 years ago since I set up a Tenants and Residents Group because of where we had lived had fallen into disrepair, we had loads of houses empty, vandalised, antisocial behaviour running absolutely rife. So through just belting away at the door and saying we can’t have this any more I started to turn it around. In the process I had 9 cars trashed, it just went on and on. Then the antisocial behaviour orders started to seep through. We had quite a few of our youths were issued, as you know in Manchester there were a lot of antisocial behaviour orders, so quite a lot got them. And then they weren’t happy with that, they started breaching them. And I decided that enough is enough, I couldn’t set my feet out the door but my name was whispered around the corner and I was being harassed, and one of the orders on this antisocial behaviour orders was you must not harass anyone. So I got that set up, I thought right I will go to court, I will make this statement, which I did. I went to the court and as you can imagine I was a nervous wreck, I didn’t sleep the night before, I get to the court, I am all dressed, I am in the court of law and I am going to respect it. I am called into the witness box and I gave my statement and then it was the turn of the perpetrator. He lied (sic) in the witness box, he doesn’t sit in it, chewing gum, yeah, don’t know, couldn’t care. I thought any minute now somebody is going to say hey lad, sit up, you are in a court of law. But no, it didn’t happen like that. I didn’t find out until 9 months later what happened to that lad, and I went to the last meeting and I asked the inspector who was chairing that meeting, could you find out for me what has happened to this chap? Now bearing in mind this guy was still walking past me on a daily basis and here I learned he had got a 6 months suspended prison sentence, but it obviously wasn’t making any difference to him at all, he was still prepared to walk past me and I felt threatened by him, I still feel threatened by him even to this day, so much so that two weeks before Bonfire night I had a firework containing 300 shots thrown at my door. I am just lucky I didn’t get the door open in time because otherwise I would have lost my eyesight.
So OK antisocial behaviour orders work in some respects, but I think they need when they are breached - more than they are, they need to be taken to court. But it is finding people, like myself, who would go forward to court, to do it. Because it is not the best occasion in my life, believe you me, and worse than that I have to walk past his 16 year old girlfriend with a baby in the pushchair going: Oh, that’s her. It is very intimidating. So I think the courts need to change their attitudes to the antisocial behaviour orders.
Chairwoman:Thank you Mary. I have to say the fact you still get up in the morning, you keep going and you keep chairing those meetings is quite remarkable and I think everybody is nodding with me in the room when I say those words to you.
There are a couple of people who clearly want to come in on this same point, the gentleman there, a police officer I should say, sorry.
Question:I am Sergeant Hepworth, I used to be the local sheriff round here for four and a half years and before I ask my question or make my point, I have just got to say to Mr Brown, my mother absolutely loves you. I will score some brownie points by asking you this question. She already thinks I am the Commissioner of Police, so God knows what her opinion of me will be after this.
This lady makes a very valid point and I have moved away from safe neighbourhood policing and I am now the sergeant in charge of the Diamond Initiative which was piloted, the first pilot opened in [indistinct] 7 weeks ago. And one of the things that we are determined to do is to work with people who have been sentenced to less than 12 months and support them robustly from trying to prevent them from the recycling churn which we have which creates so many problems and costs the community so much money. One of our other objectives is to make sure that people that are given community payback orders actually go to their community payback orders. And it is surprising that we had a figure of 70% of people failing to attend their first appointment, and in the 7 weeks that we have been running, we are talking about small numbers, but we have turned that from a 70% failure rate into an 82% success rate of people turning up, my team knock on their door and they tell them you must go to this place at this time and if you don’t we will come round and we will find out why, and if you breach we will come round and we will take you before the court, and that is what is needed and that is what this lady needed, someone to just enforce the rules.
The question that I would ask of the panel is how can we better educate members of the public in relation to what the community justice system is all about? I mean the biggest problem is people don’t understand that removing someone’s liberty is their punishment when they are sent to the prison and they want them in the back yard of the prison smashing rocks. Now if we can ensure that members of the public understand that the removal of their liberty is the punishment, and rehabilitation is something that is needed, and also that if they are given a community payback order then we will make sure they attend it, that would be a big step forward.
Prime Minister:I think you are both right you know from what you are saying. Mary you are an incredibly brave woman to have survived this intimidation, and what you are both pointing to is you can have all the laws in the world but if they are not enforced and people don’t see that they actually face justice, and justice is seen to be done, then it is not good enough. So I think you are pointing to us actually doing what Darren has just suggested, following through those people who are either convicted or those people who are under community payback orders and making sure, the difference that was made I think Darren was you coming to the door in your uniform and telling people that you have got to be there, and that was the power of the law to force people to change their behaviour. So it is very important that we can force this through. And I think the public, as Louise has recommended in her report, should have more information about the outcome of cases in court. And we used to have these in local newspapers, if they are not in local newspapers we have got to have another way of putting it on the internet and other ways so that people can actually see that justice is being done.
And Darren, give me your mother’s name and I will send her a Christmas card!
Chairwoman:Now there is an offer. There won’t be Christmas cards to everybody in the room, just so I am clear!
Do we want to continue with this issue of community payback and community engagement?
Question:I am project lead for the Community Justice Court in Newham and your government is about to publish a Green Paper on community justice and I would like you to know how much success we have had in our preliminary work in Newham.
For example Darren and I are working very closely on the interface between community justice and the Diamond Project, and also working closely with the payback team on community orders where there is an unpaid work requirement. But one of the really powerful parts of community justice, if I might offer this, ahead of the Green Paper is the work that is done outside the court house. And as Hazel Blears was saying, actually communicating what happens within the criminal justice system, so yes you have the community, yes you have the Metropolitan Police, but in-between you have all these other criminal justice agencies and the associated agencies. For instance Mary in Newham would be greatly supported when she appears in the court by Victim Support and the Witness Service. And one of the things in Newham we have been able to do is to ensure that all the agencies that have a part to play in the end to end process, not necessarily on Asbo applications but on all criminal justice cases, are working together under the banner of community justice. So here in Newham we have been able to make it mean something which involves all of the agencies, so we have had very active partnerships working with the London Borough of Newham and a whole range of practical aspects of community justice. So it is very reassuring as we go forward because some of the disconnects that concern the community in particular could very easily be addressed through community justice.
Prime Minister:[indistinct] community payback projects?
Question:The Attorney General visited, with a number of us we all drove down in the back of Darren’s van, including the Attorney General, to Youth House, and to give the community some idea of just how powerful this is. Youth House is a very small charity based in Canning Town and it supports disengaged young people, an outreach charity. And last year at our community justice workshop a nomination for community payback was made of all the refurbishment of the entire building and we have calculated that since then, since we have had offenders there every weekend, that charity has been freed up from just over 35,000 worth of work to their building, and that is just using the national minimum wage, so I imagine it would cost them even more if they got contractors in.
And if I might conclude, the really interesting part to pick up on what Darren was saying is that Youth House has discovered that many of the adult offenders who came back to do this work at Youth House are parents of the very children who have used that facility and therefore Youth House represents not just a very visible example of punishment, and it has been very hard work for these offenders and part of our communication out from community justice has been about that, and the discipline that community orders can bring, but also Youth House is now beginning to think about how can they actually integrate those offenders who have done their bit, have done their 250 hours, refurbished this building, so actually it is as much about the punishment as it is about the reintegrating of those people who come back to this [indistinct]. So it is not an easy message but chronologically punishment and victims first, social integration of those coming back to the wards next.
Chairwoman:Well I am very heartened by your final message, which is the message of the 10,000 people I spoke to during the review, which is get punishment, we have an appetite for rehabilitation.
Hazel, I think the biggest challenge is, there seems to be around the country bits of good practice around community payback, but 10,000 people spoken to during the course of my review said criminals get away with it, no-one faces consequences for the crimes they commit. How can we push back so that we turn what is clearly happening in bits of pieces into a major drive across the country?
Hazel Blears:Well first of all I just want to say well done to what is happening in Newham. I mean this is quite new business in some ways for the criminal justice system. We had the big project in Liverpool where we spent a lot of money and a fantastic charismatic judge who is making a huge difference, and then we did it in Salford and we did it without the money because we didn’t get the 14 million, but what we did was we tried to mainstream it into the existing criminal justice system using the principles, and that is exactly what you are doing. The most powerful thing we experienced was that local people got to vote on what it was they wanted the convicted criminals to do in their community, so there were ten options and they voted on the top three, they then went and did it, they were seen doing it in the community and then they had to report back about what they had done. And it is that connection that gives people confidence. If you just think that it is happening somewhere else and it is not happening on your beat, and I think you have to do this really locally in your neighbourhood, not just in your town or your borough but in your neighbourhood, you need to see the people doing what you have asked them to do as part of their punishment. And the other point I would just make is we trained every Magistrate in our city in this new way of working because it is new for Magistrates, they are not used to having somebody in front of them where they question them and they put them under pressure and they put them on the spot, is it is a very personal thing for a Magistrate to do. I have sat in our court in Salford and I have seen some brilliant Magistrates now who are saying to the offender you were up before me 6 weeks ago and I want to see you in another 6 weeks time and unless you have done what I tell you to do then you are going out of that door, not that door. It is so powerful. And all I would say to people in the community is I think we need more Magistrates who come from places like this, who understand it and who get it. Magistrates do a brilliant job but we do not have enough Magistrates who actually live side by side with some of these problems and really understand the impact on the victims, and we are going to run a campaign to try and get more people to be Magistrates from different kind of communities, which I think would help.
Chairwoman:Can I just say that it is also about translating this into English, so we say to the nation in the mirror vote on what projects you want cleaned up. The piece of paper I got from colleagues in the Ministry of Justice said environmental/green projects. I said cleaning the streets, they said washing down the external walls of external community buildings, I said clearing off graffiti. So there is a huge challenge here right across the system to talk in plain English. The Home Secretary wants to come in and then I am going to go to you Robin and you deserve the last question as the Mayor of Newham, and then I am going to ask the Prime Minister to sum up.
Jacqui Smith:Right, challenge to speak clearly! Mary is immensely brave, but we want more people to be like Mary and it is not unreasonable that in order to be like Mary they should know what is going to happen to them when they get to court and what happens to the people that they gave evidence about. That is the key point about why people need information, not just because they need information, because that is the way that you get more people to be witnesses in the first place to stand alongside the police and others in helping to bring down crime and antisocial behaviour.
[Indistinct] how to educate people and we have heard quite a lot about that. One of the important things of course that we announced a week and a half ago, which was one of Louise’s recommendations, is when you do community payback: one, the community needs to have given some ideas as to what it should be; two, it needs to be visible. Wearing an orange jacket is a sign that something is happening and it brings confidence to the community - that was the reason behind that. And secondly, Darren, how do you educate people? Well one of the other things Louise found out was that some of the people who people listen to most are the police, so that is another thing about the pledge, monthly information, not just about the crime that is happening but about what is being done about it and what has happened to people when they get into the criminal justice system because that is a good way of actually getting that message out.
Chairman:Robin. He is just reminding us he is the elected Mayor of Newham, just so we are sure!
Robin:I think just to say before I do, which is one of the things, you have heard a lot of things that are happening in Newham and Linda and Darren do some great work, but we have also put a lot of effort into diversion and one of the interesting things when you ask people, they don’t actually say we want [indistinct] we say we want diversion for young people, so that is a big issue, and sport and free swims, which the government has introduced, fantastic, really important.
But I just want to follow up the point about local. There are two things, I will give you three examples. One of the things we did in this borough, we have got a terrific borough commander and we said we want to have a lot more stop and search, just a lot more, I wanted everybody to stop and search every kid but apparently that is illegal so we weren’t allowed to do it. We have had the biggest drop in knife crime because if you disarm the kids, you ask the kids they will tell you, please search everybody because if we are disarmed it is a lot safer, and that is kind of a local thing. Interestingly it is a Liberal Democrat - which we don’t have any of here - spokesperson said we were the most successful in tackling this problem in the country, which was very nice, although if you think who I am talking about. So we were very proud of that and that is a local thing. But the other thing, we mentioned RSLs, private rent is a big problem for us here, loads of [indistinct] so you go from kind of violent crime to this, loads of [indistinct] you ask people here and they will tell you it is a big issue, and we have some powers but they are complicated to use. And I think one of the things that would be helpful in the multi-area agreement we are going to be asking you about is the ability to put stuff in locally to meet local issues. All I really want is to be able to go into a [indistinct] and say if you haven’t cleaned it in 48 hours we are fining you 100. Simple. But if we have to go to court, so it is finding a way to empower people locally to be able to almost implement their own laws of enforcement. I am not suggesting we do it on the [indistinct] side but on the antisocial behaviour side, freeing us up to do that, this government has done a lot to give powers to local authorities and to give all powers, but the ability to do it ourselves so that we can do the things that matter to our own people. [indistinct] isn’t a problem in Upminster and [indistinct] as it is here, so it is that local power stuff.
Chairwoman:That is the elected Mayor of Newham, never failing to meet the challenge, they just want to run the whole themselves, be judge, jury, everything. It is your town, isn’t it?!
[LAUGHTER]
So the Prime Minister to finish off I think.
Prime MinisterWell can I say first of all thank you to Louise for chairing this and also for everything that she does around the country. And Louise, her report was ground breaking and she is going to continue to report to Jacqui and me about the progress that I know she will continue to make. Let me thank Jacqui and Hazel for answering the more difficult questions and leaving me with the easier ones, but let me thank all of you for coming today.
All of you, as I said before, are making a difference in your own areas. What we want to learn from you is how we can take the experience that you have had, the ideas that you have, the insights that you have and make that something that can happen in other parts of the country who need to know about the great successes that are happening in your areas as a result of your actions.
And Darren, if you will forgive me, I will send a Christmas card to everyone who is here, and to thank you all for coming today.
What have we learnt? We have learnt that we can make a difference. It is tough for people in their own communities when they are up against lawless and antisocial behaviour, but you have shown that when people can stand up and stand together it can make a difference.
What do we know now? We know that neighbourhood policing can be more effective in future, that is something that is at the heart of what we can do for the future, visible policing in every area. And Jacqui has just outlined the plans where that neighbourhood policing will give you more information, allow you to ask questions, have regular meetings and have your questions answered within a specific period of time so that people get the information. And I believe that we can expand out of that an even bigger service for local residents so that people can travel the areas in which they live without fear.
We have learnt also intervention early, as we have said, is really important when we are dealing with children and young people and stopping something that you can see is going to degenerate further by taking action early, and I know we have got to do more. I know there are people here from the family intervention programme, we have got to do more.
We have learnt about coordination and how it has got to be more effective in the future between all the different agencies, that there is goodwill here for people to work together and that is why there are so many people who represent different strands of both the public agency work and voluntary work here today.
And I think we have learnt that we need a better flow of information to the community about what is actually happening, and that is particularly true, as Louise says, in the criminal justice system, she says that in the report, where as Mary said and others have said we just do not know sometimes what has happened as a result of, sometimes a very brave stand, that someone is taking and then you never know what has happened.
Community payback, I think we have got a lot to learn about how we can work better in the future but I like the idea where the community chooses what the community payback should be, people see a visible sign of that being done, it improves the community facilities and people see it is not a soft option, it is actually a tough option and it is about punishment first and then as we said rehabilitation and integration into the community later.
I think together we can work even better in the future to build a stronger society. I believe that if you were to read the newspapers you would think that there was nothing good sometimes that was happening in our communities. We have got to get the message across about all the good things that you are doing. I believe that is a challenge for us to praise what you are doing, to show other people that it is making a difference, and we will try in the new year to publicise all the good things that are happening so that people can understand that they can learn from what is happening in different areas.
And just one final word. Thank you for everything that you are doing, you are showing people that you can stand up to antisocial behaviour and crime, you are showing people we can build a better and stronger society, and in these difficult economic times you are showing that people can come together and work together for more cohesive communities and that is to the benefit of everybody in Britain.
Thank you all very much.
seen at 15:43, 11 December in Number 10 ยป News Stories.